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Ian Preston interviewed by Thomas Lean

Preston, Ian, 1932- (speaker, male; interviewee; lecturer; engineer; chief executive)
2013-09-17, 2013-10-07, 2013-11-13

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  • Title:
    Ian Preston interviewed by Thomas Lean
  • Contributor: Preston, Ian, 1932-; Lean, Thomas
  • Other Titles:
    Collection title: An Oral History of the Electricity Supply Industry in the UK
  • Rights: not allocated
  • Description:
    Track 1 [46:27] [Interview One: 17 September 2013] Remarks on childhood: early memory of visiting a warship on the Clyde; birth in Bournemouth, move to Scotland aged 2; description of father John Hamilton, Managing Director of Southhook Potteries, keen angler, background of Ayrshire village, son of a barber; description of mother Edna Irene, born in Bournemouth; IP an only child; childhood homes, IP mainly brought up in Kilmarnock; use of electricity around home; IP interest in rugby and cricket; cycling. [05:10] Remarks on schooling: Kilmarnock Academy, part primary part secondary school; IP enjoyment of maths and science; walking to school; sports facilities; IP involvement with school magazine. [08:00] Remarks on: religion in childhood; IP ready to go university by 15 but needing to do two years in sixth form first; description of IP as teenager; sitting higher maths at sixth form strengthening his application for university; IP wanting to study maths and physics at University of Glasgow, few people travelling far from home to university at time. [12:00] Remarks on Glasgow University: meeting many people from overseas when living in hostel; father funding his university; subjects studied, maths, physics, chemistry, geology, specialising in physics in year 3 and 4; practical classes; IP enjoying study, finding workload reasonable; IP enjoyment of maths, preference for physical rather than chemical physics; considering specialising in geology; social life, bars university dances; more girls on maths than physics courses; anecdote about nicer girls studying medicine; no careers guidance. [17:20] Anecdote about joining the electricity supply industry [ESI]: IP interest in car rallying as a navigator, where his driver's father, senior electricity board engineer, advised IP to join ESI as nuclear power developed. [18:30] Remarks on IP PhD on photo-electron interactions: experiments using synchrotron and cloud chamber to disintegrate oxygen; IP on staff running synchrotron, technicians; supervisor Jimmy Atkinson; IP finding PhD process mechanistic; colleagues who came from St Andrew's University; IP completing PhD after he left university. [22:30] Remarks on joining SSEB: starting at offices in Glasgow, sharing an office with company physicist; anecdote about interview to become an assistant physicist at Hunterston nuclear power station; training courses at Calder Hall, Harwell, spending a year at Chapel Cross; IP working with team at GEC. [24:45] Remarks on SSEB: miniature version of ESI in England; sharing a small office in Glasgow with Noel Tweedy. [26:35] Remarks on working at Hunterston nuclear power station: description of Hunterston under construction; outline of duties of assistant physicist, careful checking of control rods, checking behaviour of fuel, running Burst Cartridge Detection Gear [BCDG] used to pick up radioactive material in gas flow; large team of people involved in bringing reactor online; instrumentation; busy 8 - 5 working days; health and safety, film badges; [31:20] colleagues, boss Brian Love, health physicist George Jackson; many safe guards around nuclear reactor; no attention from environmentalists at time; IP enjoyments in work, plant running well; 6 month commissioning process. [34:05] Remarks on: IP period working at Chapelcross, with responsibility for BCDG; attending classes at Harwell; health and safety training at Calder Hall; number of people required to run a nuclear power station; different parts of pant interacting through shift charge engineer. [36:10] Remarks on IP post at head office in Glasgow as deputy in the research and technology division of SSEB: continuation of work from Hunterston; research on understanding plant; analysing technical information from plant and elsewhere; BCDG work; exclusively responsible for nuclear stations; growth of staff from initially just two people; IP taking more responsibility for other people; group expanding to investigate metallurgical problems on conventional plant, such as cracks in boiler pressure vessels, an industry wide problem; fitting of thermocouples and thermometers to measure thermal stresses on plant; [42:00] continuous interaction with CEGB over materials issues, circulation of reports; anecdote about IP getting on better with CEGB operators than CEGB researchers did; importance of circulating information back to plant operators; description of position of research and technology division with SSEB; extensive use of information from other sources such as UKAEA [UK Atomic Energy Authority]

    Track 2 [30:06] Remarks on SSEB Research and Technology Division: technical information from CEGB and UKAEA; connections with plant builders; research on marine clogging of cooling water systems; continuous checking for boiler leaks; problems caused by mussels in boiler tubes; wide ranging technical assistance remit; chemistry laboratory; physicists and engineers doing experiments using plant; major emphasis of keeping current plant running; effect of quality of plant on ease of keeping it running; [05:05] SSEB serious boiler tube troubles; IP mainly performing managerial rather than direct technical work; growth in size of group; no contact with universities; brilliant group leader, Jim, leaving, but dying a few years later, anecdote about Jim continuing to work on problems in the pub after work; IP promotion to lead group. [09:50] Remarks on IP promotion to manager of Design and technical services division: Francis Tombs, director of engineering, promoting IP; IP enjoying job; good team of people to work with; responsibilities for group to design and analysis of components and peripheral equipment, experts on boiler problems; description of workplace in Cathcart; mix of mechanical, instrumentation and electrical engineers, all with connections to CEGB equivalents; IP good relationship with CEGB Leatherhead and Berkeley directors, example of collaboration on research over vibration on transmission lines; importance of writing reports well; [15:00] Francis Tombs good management, value of previous industry experience, anecdote about IP rapid promotions; design of peripheral equipment; design of new plant by manufacturers, with input from SSEB; design and technical services division work on Longannet Power Station, such as on improvement to crushed coal feeder; work mostly solving small problems; constantly busy nature of work; IP heavy paperwork burden; IP enjoyment of work; working hours, anecdote about being stopped by police during very busy period commissioning plant; [21:00] work involved in commissioning power stations; anecdote about devising ways of stopping people stealing coal; anecdote about IP being cautioned against doing unofficial 'homer' work in workshops when he started working at Hunterston. [24:00] Anecdote about IP interview at Hunterston. [25:20] Remarks on: IP selection of staff and importance of them talking sense; IP enjoyments in daily life at Design and technical services division; IP enjoyment of fishing; IP promotion to chief engineer. [28:05] Remarks on chief engineer's role: responsibility for technology and operations; analysing operational reports daily and acting on any problems.

    Track 3 [22:40] Remarks on: Chief Engineer's position within SSEB, responsibility for design and operations, responsibility to directors but not sitting on board; interaction with chairmen Francis Tombs, Donald Miller, Roy Berridge, and contrast of their management styles; little interaction with electricity council, other than with Roger Farrance over labour relations; IP involvement with union negotiations on private basis, importance of informal meetings with unions; IP giving up membership of union when he became chief engineer; right wing electrical unionists helping to reduce likelihood of strikes. [06:40] Remarks on difficulties keeping lights on during severe weather: example of recent cut off of Isle of Mann; IP helicopter visits to network during times of trouble. [08:30] Remarks on: current size of SSEB, nuclear power stations at Hunterston and Torness, large coal station at Longannet; rivalry between North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board [NSHEB] and SSEB, division of assets at privatisation, Cruachan Power Station passing to SSEB; limited interaction with NSHEB in 1970s. [12:20] Remarks on transmission system in Scotland: SSEB responsibility for grid in their area, good working relationship with NSHEB at time of trouble, interaction with CEGB; grid control station. [14:30] Remarks on: chief engineer's daily concerns of keeping power stations performing as per plan; chief engineer's role in long term planning; little interaction with board engineers elsewhere, except for annual conferences and at times of trouble; system working well normally, problems dealt with quickly; importance of keeping individual part of the system running to smooth running of the hole; 'keeping the lights on' occasionally used an excuse as there were many measures before that point; [18:40] long term planning by CEGB transmission and planning divisions; IP enjoyments in work, satisfaction of running plant; responsibilities to customers. [20:30] Remarks on IP career: luck in having career progress steps; IP posting to CEGB Barnwood as Chief Design and Construction Engineer; later being made deputy chairman of SSEB.

    Track 4 [1:25:23] [Interview Two: 7 October 2013] Remarks on effects of 1970s miners strikes on SSEB: picketing of power stations; Longannet supplied by coal from mine beneath it; limited problems caused by strike in Scotland; importance of bringing Inverkip oil fired power station online to meet demand; changes in oil prices causing closure of Inverkip; pickets not causing problems staffing power stations; ease of keeping power stations running compared to starting them up; anecdote about installing mattresses at Longannet to allow staff to stay overnight. [04:45] Remarks on starting work for CEGB: interview with Gil Blackman, Glyn England and others for post of Director-General of CEGB Generation Development and Construction Division at Barnwood; outline of CEGB hierarchy and positions of Director-Generals; discussion topics of regular meetings of Directors-General, including provision of technical services to operational divisions; Peter Howard, Director-General of Transmission Development and Construction Division at Guildford. [08:00] Remarks outlining role of Barnwood: larger number of skilled engineers and support staff; duties vetting manufacturers' plant proposals, advising operators on plant difficulties, supervising new plant construction; differences of view between manufacturers and CEGB technical people. [10:25] Remarks on: moving between SSEB and CEGB a relatively easy step for IP due to common technical basis; differences between ESI in England and Scotland, particularly in scale, good relations over technical problems, such as boiler cracking; IP and family move to village of Painswick in Gloucestershire. [12:55] Remarks on starting at Barnwood: description of first day; [section between 14:02 – 14:10 closed]; IP rejecting Jaguar official car in favour of a Ford; IP already knowing some technical staff to some extent; importance of secretaries to running of Barnwood, running IP's diary, organisation, anecdote about importance of secretary having good relationship with wife; role of wife in formal social life at Barnwood; anecdote about tripping over at work. [18:50] Remarks on IP daily work at Barnwood: formal meetings; ad-hoc technical meetings; anecdote about visiting site of proposed Severn Barrage hydroelectric station by helicopter; visits from outside; story about visit from GEC chairman Arnold Weinstock, resulting in positive letter from Weinstock in spite of his reputed dissatisfaction with GEC-Barnwood relations; importance of visiting staff around building; IP hands-on-management style; anecdote about informality of staff towards him during later visit to Longannet power station; views of Barnwood staff of IP; [25:25] IP good relationship with CEGB board member Dennis Lomer; description of Dennis Lomer, an excellent engineer; IP status as a foreign animal at Barnwood, Barnwood Director-General's traditionally drawn from CEGB, IP introduction of changes to Barnwood; [28:00] anecdote about IP closing Barnwood's four ornate coffee shops to improve staff productivity, to protest of some staff; need to control costs. [29:37] Description of Barnwood and facilities: golf course, car park, rifle range, facility for staff to repair cars; 3 bedroomed house, previously part of mental hospital, used by IP as home when he first arrived and by overnight guests; Arboretum, bowling green, gym, pub; 2000 staff making little use of some facilities; anecdote about Ford Cortinas bought to cut costs of staff transport; paint and gardening shop; staff association; [34:55] glass, open plan, main building; description of IP office. [36:05] Remarks on changes and cutting costs: anecdote about cutting costs then being instructed to increase staffing; IP encouraging more accountability; anecdote about IP requesting staff stop making incremental improvements to plant to aid its speedy completion. [38:40] Remarks on management of Barnwood: independence and relative freedom of Directors-General; IP good interaction with board member Dennis Lomer to agree overall programme and at times of trouble; anecdote about Lomer's intervention in a strike in Lancashire. [41:10] Remarks on IP subordinate Directors at Barnwood: Brian, overseeing Dinorwig and other stations; Ted Pugh, overseeing Dungeness B, Hinkley and Heysham; Peter Billam in charge of technical staff; secretary Richard ; IP management style, more problems with superiors than subordinates. [44:00] Remarks on Barnwood projects: IP only overseeing one project from start to finish, Drax B, where he ordered a simple copy of Drax A rather than spend time trying to add improvements; lengthy, difficult construction of Dungeness B, problems with boilers; anecdote about Tony Benn visit to Dungeness B improving labour relations; Heysham and Hartlepool problems with boilers; difficulties with Hinkley and Hunterston; small problems becoming hard to fix, such as difficulties repairing leeks in boiler tubes. [49:00] Comments on nuclear reactor policy: SSEB's Donald Miller favouring AGR over PWR reactors; difficulties caused by AGR plants differing so much from each other; inability to address issue of electricity plant in UK, with comparisons between 1970s and recent discussions over new build nuclear stations; problems caused by redesign of plant; Barnwood role in altering designs; weakness of power station manufactures due to practice of awarding them individual contracts that did not allow expertise to develop; difficulty making decisions over large capital investments in UK; [54:35] comparisons between with electricity industry and IP later experience in water industry where civil servants reduced expenditure on maintenance to cut costs; IP visit to USA to view nuclear reactor designs and subsequent favouring of Combustion Engineering PWR design overruled by Walter Marshall; [57:57 pause] 1970s nuclear reactor debates, debates between Donald Miller and Walter Marshall and CEGB; technical debates obscuring real issue of successfully building reactors; Donald Miller opposition to Sizewell B; recent lengthy debates over Hinkley C; history of bad handling of large decisions in UK over power plant choice in postwar period; risks over future gas supply; [1:01:45] IP favouring proven Combustion Engineering PWR power stations in 1970s; anecdote about IP counterpart Michel Hogue showing up Minister Norman Lamont on visit to a French PWR; 3-Mile Island incident having little long term influence on reactor debate; [1:06:15] Barnwood technical staff favouring elegant solutions, with associated desire to improve design; remarks on managing engineers and scientists; long term history of problems with plant development in UK; nationalism in reactor choice; lack of logical process for plant development taking in safety and profitability. [1:10:40] Remarks on technical weakness of manufacturers: lack of facilities; anecdote about GEC's superior turbine making be no guarantee of orders; interaction between Barnwood and manufactures over power station construction; large amounts of information provided to manufacturers; design process, contractor submitting design to review by Barnwood. [1:15:15] Remarks on power station construction: Drax B, a successful exact copy of Drax A; difficulties with 2000MW coal power stations; replication of successful designs without modification crucial to success; little attention to renewable energy at Barnwood, apart from Severn barrage tidal station. [1:19:05] Remarks on: power-station operators being the source of many design changes; Drax A operators asking for design changes in Drax B; new power stations ideally exact copies of earlier power stations, with data-bank of amendments; example of EDF's successful series production of PWRs, contrasted to UK practice; criticism of CEGB for gold-plating designs; systematic nature of problems caused by making small changes in power station designs; IP feelings about problems stronger today after later similar experience in the water industry.

    Track 5 [26:14] Remarks on: contact with senior CEGB management, not seeing chairman Glyn England; frequent seeing Dennis Lomer and Gil Blackman; anecdote about Walter Marshall objecting to IP; not seeing much of politicians outside of visits; [section between Track 5 1:44 – 2:25 closed] lack of contact with Area Electricity Boards; limited contact with electricity council apart from industrial relations matters; lack of interaction with universities, possibility of contact with government laboratories at lower levels. [03:40] Remarks on running Barnwood: many social functions in London, often with engineering institutes; IP not working a great deal at home; limited degree of technical involvement with projects, with example of method for stopping crushed coal feeder in power stations wearing itself out; lack of laboratory facilities at Barnwood; Barnwood computer facilities; considerable amount of travel around construction sites; international travel to America looking at PWR power stations; [08:50] anecdote about signage mistake on trip to Heysham. [10:00] Remarks on construction of power stations: Dinorwig Power Station construction, anecdotes about landslip and blasting. [12:20] Remarks on: IP limited involvement with labour relations issues at Barnwood; outline of labour relations machinery and negotiations processes. [13:55] Remarks on: Barnwood limited involvement in long term power station planning, normally the domain of the CEGB planning department; Dennis Lomer and IP dynamic approach to solving construction issues causing problems with others on CEGB board; occasional contact with head of operations Gil Blackman; meetings of CEGB Director-Generals bringing together heads of operations and development; [18:45] limited interaction with Central Electricity Research Laboratories and Berkeley Nuclear Laboratories; IP often attending formal functions, otherwise limited social life around Barnwood itself; IP friends either in Scotland or ESI; importance of black-tie formal functions as an informal discussion forum. [21:10] Remarks on IP career development: enjoyment as Director-General due to ability to make progress and effect a large part of industry; return to SSEB as Deputy Chairman; IP attending management school; importance of proving competence and developing good reputation to senior managers, such as Francis Tombs and Dennis Lomer in IP career, to career development; anecdotes about IP management of Scottish Power and encouraging other directors; importance of IP return to SSEB as deputy chairman in allowing his career to develop.

    Track 6 [1:11:58] [Interview Three: November 13 2013] Remarks on: settling down of industry after 1970s; seeing little of new CEGB chairman Walter Marshall after introductory dinner; Marshall's preoccupation with nuclear matters. [pause 02:15] Remarks on future energy choices: unlikelihood of future coal power stations compared to gas and EDF designed nuclear stations; 1980s Barnwood view of future generation including new nuclear stations; possibilities over future carbon dioxide caption technology; risks over potential future gas supplies; new EDF designed nuclear power stations. [05:40] Remarks on: limited Barnwood consideration of environmental matters over power stations in 1980s; Scottish Power later investigating carbon capture technology. [06:35] Remarks on joining SSEB as deputy chairman: invitation from SSEB chairman Donald Miller; wife and family reasons supporting return to Scotland; process leading up to selection of IP as new deputy chairman, involving Scottish Office, SSEB board and Donald Miller; return to SSEB in time to start work on floatation of SSEB; enjoying starting at SSEB; highly active predecessor Donald Miller; IP handling details of privatisation; [10:40] outline of duties of chairman, key issue of maintaining staff relations; value of SSEB shops as a point of contact with public; female board member taking a particular interest in shops; good communications with customers. [13:40] Remarks on labour relations at SSEB: good labour relations at SSEB through good communications; value of board membership discussing annual report with all staff to defusing potential problems; good relations with unions, who were sensitive to management's problems; IP receiving letter whilst ill from ETU union leader; Electricity Council, particularly Roger Farrance, dealing with national union negotiations. [17:10] Remarks on: anecdote about IP low key approach for walking through offices with a coffee talking to staff; value of talking to staff in public relations and feedback; area managers building links with local communities; [section between 19:00 – 19:25 closed]; poor levels of senior salaries in state owned ESI; anecdote about politician Donald Dewar later removing IP from position in water industry as IP was seen by some as potentially in favour of privatisation of water industry. [22:30] Remarks on privatisation of ESI: rumours before official announcement; debates over exactly how industry would be reorganised; IP in favour of privatisation as it would allow more freedom for industry from political and civil service interference; poor treatment of industry from civil service; example of civil service limiting on water industry freedom of action; low salaries of nationalised ESI unrecognised until comparisons made with private sector and higher salaries after privatisation. [26:40] Remarks on development of privation prospectus of SSEB: anecdote about need for very tight defining of terminology; huge am mount of paperwork involved; work scattered through organisation, complicated process for collecting input from different groups; American external advisers [section between 29:55 – 30:08 closed]; interaction between consultants and SSEB staff; [30:40] description of typical American consultant, young, polite, well educated, understood role as consultants; recommendation of consultants by merchant bankers; contribution of consultants to ensuring privatisation process went smoothly; assertive and helpful nature of consultants; need for considerable amount of information to go into prospectus to ensure process ran smoothly; limited contact with other area electricity boards. [34:20] Further remarks on privatisation: expecting 12 Area Boards to become 6, IP later recommendation that SSEB purchase English Area Board and a water company; problems over purchase of water company; IP paper on future of SSEB recommending successful purchase of MANWEB, due to impossibility of purchasing former CEGB assets or NSHEB to expand; failure of SSEB's purchase of Southern Water compared to success of MANWEB purchase; possibility of 4 large area boards made of 6 companies each; advantages of SSEB having its own generation capacity; difficulty for area boards to run specialised nuclear power stations; Scottish nuclear power stations continuing under former SSEB staff; [39:30] key difficulty of interface with public post privatisation, difficulties with Labour supporting members of public; interaction with politicians over privatisation process, mix of views amongst politicians; difficulties with with Scottish Office civil servants over privatisation process; civil servants limiting necessary expenditure pre-privatisation compared with ESI freedom of action post privatisation; general problems of civil service entrenched attitudes and personal agendas, examples of recent civil service problems; civil servants involved with initial privatisation outlines; [45:40] mixed staff reactions to privatisation, privatisation bringing winners and losers; long period preparing documents for privatisation with help of lawyers; contribution of Edinburgh based bankers to close accounting of costs and accuracy of proposal; bankers much in favour of privatisation; IP post privatisation study about future direction of Scottish Power; IP becoming deputy chairman when Scottish Power was created but as acting chairman; party in Glasgow upon privatisation. [52:00] Remarks on Scottish Power post privatisation: immediate tidying up process post privatisation; IP appointment as Chief Executive; differences between chief executive and chairman roles; varied effects of privatisation on staff; tighter control over staff; anecdote about sale of surplus vans, demonstrating greater management freedom; greater scrutiny of manpower figures and reductions to restrict costs; post privatisation relationship with unions. [56:50] Remarks on chief executive duties: running through budget and plans with management committee monthly; make-up of management committee of department heads. [59:45] Remarks on post privatisation: less discussion processes, more direct control; great management access to performance data; need to more carefully control figures to ensure profitability; mixed staff reaction to changes; lack of problems making privatisation a non-story for press; personnel and technical relationships' CEO duties of meeting with staff and public. [1:03:40] Remarks on relationship with chairman and board: Donald Miller's retirement with transition of SSEB to Scottish Power; Murray Stuart taking over as CEO; Stuart's chairmanship allowing IP easier freedom of action than Miller's; IP and Murray god relationship after one disagreement. [1:05:05] Remarks on: meeting shareholders at AGM; gradual change of ethos after privatisation; privatisation allowing greater ability to make decisions; tighter, less friendly relationships and company atmosphere post privatisation; current industry retaining similar structure to early privatised period; IP enjoying freedom of CEO role; IP decision to retire early at time of takeover of another company; anecdote about IP six jobs following retirement on boards of Pakistan power station, Clydeport, Morgan Grenfell, Motherwell Bridge, East of Scotland Water Authority.

    Track 7 [27:49] Comments on IP time on board of Pakistan power stations: earlier practice of CEGB member of power station board via Morgan, Grenfell connection; IP sitting on board of Kot Addu power station until deciding to resign; troubled conditions around Pakistan power station; duties of board member; IP deciding to resign due to feeling unsafe and unsatisfied with ability to change how company was being run; holding of board meetings in safety of Dubai; [05:25] [section between 5:25 – 6:56 closed]; Pakistanis wanting to learn to speak English; [07:42] power station running quite well; IP not knowing how situation developed afterwards. [08:00] Remarks on IP enjoying board membership of Clydeport. [08:40] Remarks on East of Scotland Water Authority: similarity of experience to nationalised SSEB; troubled relationship with civil service. [09:30] Remarks on chairmanship of Motherwell Bridge: IP not considering himself to have done a good job; IP regrets over not sacking incompetent finance director; company decline but recovery in recent years; business of making large metal components; IP responsibility for problems due to not sacking finance director. [11:30] Remarks on board membership of Mining Scotland, IP friendship with directors: ownership of open cast mines in Scotland, IP deciding to resign. [12:30] Remarks on chairmanship of East of Scotland Water: IP sorry to leave; similarity of water industry to electricity industry; each Scottish water authority run by private sector chairman; possibilities for privatisation unrealised; technical similarities between water and electricity industry; Secretary of State for Scotland asking IP to resign due to Labour Party revolt; IP enjoying job, enjoying working with chief executive Rod Rennet and others. [16:55] Remarks on: qualities of good director, offering chairman honest appraisal of business; qualities of good chairman, avoiding making same mistakes as others; IP mistake at Motherwell bridge over finance director; IP enjoying water industry experience most of directorships. [18:45] Remarks on directorship of Morgan, Grenfell & Co merchant bank: new area for IP; typical duties as director; contrast of electricity industry employees and polished bankers; IP friendship with chairman. [20:55] Remarks on: enjoying fishing outside of work; IP glad to retire c.2006. [22:05] Remarks on future prospects of electricity industry: ongoing nature of industry, potential obstruction form government inaction; late decision making over key issues; renewable energy a political rather than technical decision; poor economics of wind-power compared to nuclear power; prospects for power cuts; need for return to clear planning and schedules of construction; [25:55] contrast with 1950s CEGB large power station construction programme. [26:20] Remarks on interview process: forgetting things; IP interested to see end results of project.
  • Notes:
    Recording: 2013-09-17, 2013-10-07, 2013-11-13;
    - Preston, Ian, 1932- (speaker, male; interviewee; lecturer; engineer; chief executive);
    - Lean, Thomas (speaker, male; interviewer)
    Recording Notes: audio file 7 WAV 24 bit 48 kHz 2-channel
    Access restrictions: sections of track 4 (between 14:02-14:10), track 5 (between 1:44-2:25), track 6 (29:55-30:08 and 19:00-19:25) and track 7 (between 5:25-6:56) closed for 30 years; the interview is otherwise open
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