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NLSC: City Lives

Fukuda, Haruko, 1946-, (speaker, female; interviewee)
1991-16-12, 1992-13-01, 1992-13-02, 1992-27-05, 1992-19-06, 1992-10-08


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  • Title:
    NLSC: City Lives
  • Contributor: Fukuda, Haruko, (speaker, female; Courtney, Cathy, (speaker, female; British Library (sound recordist)
  • Place Name: Nikko Europe offices, London
  • Description:
    Part 1 (tape 1 side A): Interview with Miss H. Fukuda, December 16th 1991. Born in Tokyo in 1946, eldest child. Two sisters, one four years younger and other ten years younger. Establishment family, father high ranking official of Ministry of Finance by end of career, part of the elite. Mother from wealthy family which made money in mining - company remains only private mining company in Japan. Great-grandfather was one of the founding members of Tokyo Stock Exchange. At time of Restoration in 1868 some people from provinces set up commerce in what is now Tokyo; HF's great-great-grandfather one of these; has become legendary person in Japan's financial world. Great-great-grandfather set up Japan's foreign exchange market - details. Great-great-grandfather also set up a trading company in silk yarns for family business. Family archives have been donated to Japanese university recently. Setting up of first commodities exchange in Japan, trading in rice, which led to futures market. A few rich people set up joint stock company and great-great-grandfather much encouraged by government etc. Details of setting up Tokyo Stock Exchange. Great-great-grandfather died bankrupt leaving message to descendants not to go into speculation. Had donated to good causes, eg sewage systems etc. Great-grandfather had to speculate in Stock Exchange to pay back debts left by his father. Further details about great-great-grandfather - married twice so two sides of the family from this root. Two sons from second marriage make link with HF's own family. Mother's grandfather became rich himself and set up bank which ceased to trade in 1930s due to recession. Also started mining company, bought land and mines and Tokyo real estate. Mining company now run by mother's brother. Great-grandfather had 2 daughters, elder was HF's grandmother - she married someone who took over family business when her father died. Mining now unprofitable business. Grandparents lived in big estate in middle of Tokyo - description - and HF born next to it. Spent a lot of childhood at grandparents' house. Description of house and way in which household run. Grandfather had Cadillac and chauffeur plus many other staff. Like Edwardian country house in England. Grandfather interested in agriculture and kept kitchen garden, pigs and other animals. HF went to grandparents two or three times a week. When she arrived maids would sit in front of the main entrance and bow deeply, welcome her, take her shoes off for her, etc. Formal in sense that a lot of attention given to family members. HF used to play with cook and maids etc. Dressing room had five dressing tables. Mother's nanny was HF's nanny. Enormous entourage of people in service with grandparents. Had houses in mountains and by the sea and each had a staff. Details of times of year when used the various houses. HF timid and not a great athlete. Further details of grandmother's house and activities there, handicraft etc. Cousins and other relations lived in houses nearby. Grandmother's younger sister kept lots of Alsations and trained them for the blind; widowed young (husband had been politician); became a Catholic, taught monks. Religion part of HF's life on father's side. Grandfather a Methodist and engineer, head of Mitsubishi shipyard, ship architect for all ships built in 1920s. Due to 1930 Treaty his career ended when Japan not able to build ships any more; later became professor at University of Tokyo. Grandmother strong woman, from samurai family; devout Christian, Baptist, had been a preacher which was unusual for women. Grandmother energetic, interested in charitable works and had masses of visitors. Grandmother lived with HF's family (grandfather died in year HF was born). Grandmother made HF pray with her every day. HF went to Catholic kindergarten aged 3; nuns all graduates of Peers School (school for children of aristocracy - HF went there later as had her mother and other family members before her). 3 or 4 typical age to go to kindergarten. Other children were those of mother's friends. HF shy and cried at kindergarten, was a problem for her teachers who said she'd never get anywhere. Made some friends. When HF six took exam to go to Peers School, no pressure put on her. Would have gone to Sacret Heart if not Peers School. Became ill aged 5 and nearly died - appendicitis - hospital and operation. In hospital for a month, mother stayed with her throughout. Anecdote about chewing gum; gum came from American forces. HF not aware of the war. Details of Japanese kindergarten day. Spent a lot of time with older women as a child. Father would come home at about 7 and HF would already be in bed. Had breakfast with father and mother in morning, Western breakfast.

    Part 2 (tape 1 side B): Father slightly remote. HF frightened of him although he was affectionate. Father would take her for a walk and to have cocoa at weekends. Later father would take her to department store to buy her presents. HF fairly close to mother, who is old-fashioned in sense that isn't demonstrative. HF brought up not to be demonstrative and not to show too much emotion, not to show tears; thought vulgar to show too much enthusiasm. Taught to be poised and this has stayed with her all life, although realised this frightening to the English and so tried harder to demonstrate emotions. Examples of things which would upset HF as a child. HF often told off for being bossy to maids, sometimes made them cry and parents would be very angry. Was quite close to her nanny, is still in touch with her. Mother was at home all the time and HF saw a lot of her. HF's mother married when she was 22; would have been unthinkable for her to have a career. Even for HF was unthinkable to have a career; women of her society never worked. Mother's younger brother said to HF she would lower her station in life if she got a job only 15 years ago. HF's mother's upbringing taught her to do a lot of things herself, but her contemporaries brought up not even to put own stockings on etc. by time were married. Mother's contemporaries serene, poised, gentle, intelligent, had trained in tea ceremony, flower arranging, piano etc. When HF 20, all her friends had learnt the same accomplishments, which were considered essential if were to marry well. Men treated these women with respect and a certain amount of romance. HF's father told her he married her mother because he heard she painted and was interested in art - details. HF doesn't know if her father fell in love with her mother - they were introduced by family friends and families decided it was a good idea if they got married. HF thinks it was a good marriage. Parents' families very different backgrounds, ie samurai tradition not interested in money, keen on modesty, so father regarded mother's family with some disdain because of its connection with trade and commerce. Father's family more upper class but not so rich as mother's. When HF three, their house was split and part sold because after war tremendously high taxes on property. House was Western, designed by naval architect grandfather - description. Grandfather was a musician and wanted his daughter to be a pianist so bought two grand pianos and built house with steel beams and girders to allow grand pianos to be moved around. HF doesn't remember strain at time of selling part of house; remembers visiting other half. Mother grew vegetables after war, hard time for her as someone brought up in restricted circumstances, and had to get up and go shopping etc. Mother did well, HF remembers her looking tired and close to tears. Japanese baths very large and need a lot of hot water, this done by burning wood, so mother had to chop wood with help of maid. Grandparents kept servants until 1950s/60s, but this unusual. HF doesn't know what happened to servants who were sacked at this time. 1940s and '50s very difficult time and HF poor, although better off than many others. Remembers not daring to say that she needed a new pair of shoes. Thinks this is why she has become very acquisitive and extravagant. Mother was eldest child with sister 14 years younger, and HF would be given aunt's cast-off clothes as she grew older. HF's grandparents never threw anything away and HF longed for new clothes. Description of grandmother's house, partly old-fashioned Japanese house, part Edwardian Western style house. Bank would bring money to grandmother's house, still do so to certain extent to HF's mother. Uncle built house on parents' property when he married. Grandparents' houses demolished a few years ago. Upper class Japanese families lived sophisticated life incorporating Western influences. House on estate where HF's mother grew up was designed by associate of Frank Lloyd Wright, Antonin Raymond, who came Japan to with FLW in 1911. HF's grandfather was first Japanese to commission house from this architect. Tokyo society clubs allowed social intercourse with foreigners. HF's aunt (mother's younger sister) worked for Mrs Raymond, interior designer, and HF had some contact with foreigners as a child. HF's childhood neighbours were Americans with children her own age, and would go and play. Great treat to eat french friend potatoes with neighbour's children. HF didn't know much English, American children spoke a little Japanese, communicated in their own way. American boy was spanked when naughty, whereas Japanese children are never beaten. Mother might shout at child but Japanese children usually told off by father; were sometimes locked up in a room for being naughty.

    Part 3 (tape 2 side A): HF had stories like `Gulliver's Travels' read to her. Grandmother used to tell her she wuld go to Hell if not well-behaved. Attitude to younger siblings. Both sisters now live in New York, HF is quite close to them. Middle sister first worked for World Bank for about 6 years and then for UN development programme in NY. Middle eister married fellow Cambridge graduate; lived apart at first because he had a job at London University (husband British); moved to New York together when he got job in IBM, now have 2 children. Youngest sister worked for Reuters but gave it up because didn't like work routine; did PhD at Columbia University, is now married to US poet. Mother is paying for youngest sister to do PhD. All three daughters would have been able to afford not to work. HF drew and painted as a child but didn't follow traditional Japanese flower arrangement and tea ceremony etc because was in England from 16 onwards. Doesn't regret it now, but at the time thought nobody would marry her, she would be a spinster and a terrible life was ahead of her. Went to Cambridge, was going to marry an Englishman. Was extremely worried from about 16-20 about her future, feared would be forced by grandparents to marry someone she didn't like. If grandparents had wanted her to marry someone she would have done it and would have stuck it out, no choice. Was brought up to obey in this way and it was her expectation. Wasn't aware of other possibilities before her. When in her 20s choice was to stay in England and marry boyfriend but not be able to see family very much and live rather a lonely life as few Japanese around in those days, or to go to Japan, live with grandparents (own parents in Philippines at the time where father was posted) and live traditional life, being married off. Thought relatives (not parents) would disapprove and possibly cut her off if she stayed in England; feared parents would disapprove but in fact they didn't. Nobody told HF about sex. Never discussed her love affairs or marriage with either of her parents. Was told about periods by teacher at school. HF went to USA with parents when she was 14, had begun to be aware of love affairs, etc. At age of 12 school divided into boys' section and girls' section; would meet occasionally. Not allowed to go out on dates etc at that stage. Hadn't fallen in love by time left Japan. Father encouraged family to see US films in Japan. Father one of first government officials to go to US in 1949, youngest member of delegation. Father sent HF postcards and presents from USA. In 1954 father decided to spend a year in USA and became a Fulbright Research Fellow - details - brought back a lot of things from US at this time and HF influenced by Western goods. Saw US films, plays, magazines, including `Life'. Learnt English from age of 6. Memories of teachers, who were mostly male. Peers School very special, only open to members of aristocracy before war. After war US forces wanted to close school down as anti-democratic, but HF's great-uncle, head of the school at the time, made it open to anyone who could pay the fees and pass entrance exam. Until present Emperor married Empress all members of the Imperial Family married people from the Peers School. Building same now as in HF's day. Details of school day. Discipline perfect, everyone sat quiet and still, sat with hands under the desk unless writing something. Thinks this probably did harm, made them inhibited and gloomy people. School encouraged children to write composition and were encouraging of independent ideas, but made children timid and not anxious to take initiative. However because from families of independent means, thinks children of the school are possibly more honest - have no reason not to be. Japanese from other social categories wouldn't say what they thought if anti-authoritarian, for fear of being punished. Examples of thoughts that would be considered outrageous in certain circumstances. HF likely to speak up because not frightened of authority. Grandmother and mother would have been politically aware although not active except by voting. Wives of politicians have to canvass for elections - details. Grandmother, when HF about 11, talking about politics; tremendously anti-American feeling in Japan in the 1950s and demonstrations - details. At end of war everyone in favour of democracy. Aristocracy lost their titles, apart from Imperial Family and immediate family. Landed possessions taken away and redistributed etc. Totally accepted that everyone was equal, became meritocratic country. No open criticism, but appeared when arranging marriages, discussing behaviour. Told at school they were a target for criticism in society because were privileged, and must not allow anyone to have the excuse to criticise; had to be doubly well-behaved. HF had no desire to rebel, nor did the others. Wore traditional uniform at school, sailor suit. Wore ordinary clothes at home, not trousers - tartan skirts and jumpers. Differences between girls' and boys' section of the school. Girls had etiquette lessons (this doesn't happen any more) - details.

    Part 4 (tape 2 side B): Details of what the boys were taught. Japanese girls taught to cook from age of 16. Girls did sewing. No opportunity to do carpentry etc. HF good at English, not good at maths and games. Some academic pressure, particularly for the boys - details - State schools had higher standard of secondary education. Girls not expected to do well academically, OK as long as didn't fail exams. Memories of going to the Kabuki and `Madame Butterfly'. Remembers seeing film `On the Beach'. Aware of nuclear threat from age of 6, was shown films at school, pictures of Hiroshima. Nuclear fall-out still there, not supposed to get wet in rain in case got leukaemia or burns. Victims of nuclear attack were all around, people dying all the time from its effect. Nuclear attack was a fact of life, not particularly shocking. School quite close to American Air Force base. No judgemental aspect on nuclear blast was particularly put over; sent parcels of clothes etc to people who lost their homes and were dying. Saw horrific photographs of burnt people. Americans lived well in Tokyo compared with Japanese, better food etc, and Japanese used to wish they could have same standard of living, but weren't bitter, was accepted because had lost the war. HF doesn't remember learning about German death camps. Americans took over the Antonin Raymond house belonging to HF's grandparents, also one seaside house was confiscated by the US Navy. When grandparents got Tokyo house back from Americans, found their antique furniture had been damaged. HF hasn't lived in Japan since 1960 and doesn't know how children are taught about the nuclear explosions now; everyone feels strongly that it should never happen again and there is tremendous resistance to nuclear power stations and waste existing in Japan. [Interview 13.01.1992] HF spent Christmas at her house in Suffolk - details. Father's background and work while HF lived in Japan. Father joined Ministry of Finance because could be answerable only to the Emperor, unlike other departments. Father worked very hard post-war on budgets and war reconstruction etc. Often worked throughout the night. [SLIGHT GAP IN TAPE] When HF aged three, father one of first to go to USA to study the way American system worked - details. In 1954 father went to USA for a year as Fulbright Research Fellow. Father's friends would visit from America - details. Due to year's absence in USA, father sent to Hokkaido on his return, as a `punishment'; became Head of Revenue in Hokkaido for two years - details.

    Part 5 (tape 3 side A): HF's great-uncle son of samurai from Sendai. Peers School had been established by Emperor. 1937-47 HF's great-uncle in charge of school because in charge of Crown Prince's education. Great-uncle was marvellous person, greatly respected, kind, was interested in HF. Uncle lived in spartan house, had photo of Crown Prince on wall and piece of calligraphy written by Crown Prince. Great-uncle was like an older samurai, frugal, detested anything to do with money or flamboyance. Great-uncle was forgiving of other people, didn't impose his wishes on others - details. Unhappy description of great-uncle as a teacher by former student of his, Mishima, in novel, and also in biography of Mishima - details. When HF about 14 father sent to Embassy in Washington and family moved to USA. Father passionately interested in USA and American government and democracy. HF knew Imperial children at school in Japan - details. Emperor's birthday celebrated at the school. Memories of the Crown Prince reporting on trip to GB for Coronation. Imperial Family very influenced by navy, as was the school - details. Use of different language at school from rest of society - details. Great-uncle had spent time in England, had music and literature in English at his house. England not a particular influence on HF; USA was much more a presence via artefacts. Thinks great-uncle would have been proud of her achievements, although wouldn't have wanted her to work in financial world (nor did father). Couldn't bring herself to tell her family for 6 months that she was working for a stockbroking firm, too downmarket. Father's family always in professions - details. Class system in Japan. HF's relationship with relatives in Japan; has lived abroad for last 30 years. HF's feelings on leaving Japan to go to USA. Close friends wrote to her almost every week when first went away. HF very lonely when first went to USA, didn't speak the language. Details of arrival in USA (Hawaii).

    Part 6 (tape 3 side B): HF 14 when arrived in USA. Journey to San Francisco where met father's friends. Washington winter. Father's salary didn't enable extravagant life. Mother's reaction to embassy life. Difficult adjustment to school, HF lost confidence, was unhappy, was language problem rather than not being clever enough at different subjects - this released HF's competitive spirit, didn't want to be considered stupid. Americans used to having foreigners around them, so were unforgiving of foreigners who couldn't understand and who didn't behave in American way, this forced HF to join in. Details of school. Pupils wore make-up and high heels, unthinkable in Japan. HF still in contact with fellow pupils - details. HF's parents liberal and open towards their children's integration into US. Details of school career. Visit to White House when Kennedys invited all diplomatic children to afternoon of opera; got Met. to come from NY to perform - details. HF watched Kennedy's inauguration on TV, so were aware of what Presidency meant. US schools teach a lot about government and foreign policy. Father never talked about his work. HF went to cinema a lot, played basketball, went bowling, cooked US recipes, made dresses. Lived in Bethesda, Maryland - description of house. No staff from Japan because father thought it might appear out of line, although grandparents would have financed it. HF helped her mother. Would entertain at home, US government people and visitors from Japan etc. Had maid who came to help with laundry and cleaning but first time in HF's life that no domestic staff living in. When arrived in GB more domestic help at home. Parents then went to Philippines, had living-in staff again. Mother had to learn to drive for life in USA. Japanese community in Washington minute and everyone knew one another. HF quite close friends with some of them now. HF continued to write letters to schoolfriends in Japan until she went to Cambridge, although volume decreased. Wasn't entirely happy in US. Travels within USA. Nov 1960 - July 1962 in USA. Memories of New York.

    Part 7 (tape 4 side A): When HF left Japan thought would return after 3-4 years. Came to England with family in July 1962, almost 16. Pop music had become important while in USA. Was sorry to leave US friends. Struck by different way people spoke in England. Stayed in Chesham Hotel, residential flats near to Japanese Embassy; great contrast to US lifestyle. First impressions not good. Embassy much more formal, father told he mustn't eat in sandwich bars, etc. Was told must live in Kensington or Belgravia, which would have meant living in flat, but father wanted a house and garden so moved to Hendon. Introduction to Channing School in Highgate. Details of HF's interview for school. Description of Hendon house. 1962 fogs. Parents busy because of Princess Chichibu. Parents out almost every afternoon and evening because of embassy functions. Details of daily routine. Details of mother's life in GB. Lack of contact with parents meant something lacking; little awareness and understanding of how family life works has affected HF's future. HF's best friend at Channing School was daughter of diplomat. HF eventually married diplomat's son. Understanding between children of diplomats re expectations and how lead lives. As result of lack of family life, other things became more important - details. Was close to sisters. Father involved children in family decision-making. Details of life at Channing School, many children diplomats so used to having foreigners, but a lot of forgiveness in contrast to USA: expected foreigners to be different. HF thought this nice but perhaps not so good in the long run. School more like HF's school in Japan than in US, strict etc. English schoolchildren much less sophisticated than US. HF having to catch up with syllabus. Was good at maths. Mother had miscarriage and had to go back to Japan and HF had to take over household; first months in England not happy. [Interview 13.02.1992] Beginning of financial links between Japanese stock market and London, approx 1961. Vickers da Costa, Foreign and Colonial Investment Trust. Anglo-Nippon Fund. First EDRs, English Depository Receipts. HF's father was Minister of Finance official in London, so very involved in this.

    Part 8 (tape 4 side B]: British merchant banks underwrote new Japanese issues, some, for example Warburgs, have maintained the links first made at this time. Japan and Britain began to formalise and properly start to do business. 1964 for first time in 50 years, issue of Japanese bond denominated in sterling - done by HF's father; Andrew Carnworth of Barings took major part also Robert Cragie. Complications involved for HF's father. Attitude of HF's father's generation to GB. British always the first to invest overseas, since nineteenth century. HF a director of Foreign and Colonial Investment Trust. Further details of first EDR issue. GB investment in new markets abroad now. HF in Prague in November with group of investment experts from Europe and Japan, approx 10 people - details. Robert Cragie was with Panmure Gordon, broker to first issue; PG remain Japanese government broker. HF's father always lunched at Claridge's when being host. Father saw members of British government - details. HF worked at World Bank in 1971, met colleagues of her father, has a lot of his correspondence. HF's family connection with Lord Jellicoe's family. HF's father arranged first ever meeting of British and Japanese finance ministers in 1964. Alec Douglas Home had approved inter-governmentary connections in 1963. 1964, Reginald Maudling received Japanese Finance Minister, despite objections.

    Part 9 (tape 5 side A): Further details re 1964 meeting between Finance Ministers. 1965 Japanese Prime Minister came to GB, first such visit since war. 1961-5 beginning of rekindled friendships. HF given fountain pen used in signing agreement for first bond; used it while at Cambridge. First bond expired in mid-80s. Crown Prince studying at Oxford and came to visit Stock Exchange. HF was asked to show him round; Japanese bond being traded at time. This history makes HF feel linked to London and City. Personal links emerge unexpectedly, eg Baring Brothers. HF is on Development Committee of National Gallery with Nicholas Baring. None of HF's contemporaries at London school went into City. HF remains in touch with friends from these days - details. HF never talks about details of work with her non-City friends; friendship based on emotional and private life rather than professional. Values absorbed at London school still prevail. Contemporaries at Cambridge from different backgrounds. HF A'levels in English, History, and French. In Japan had to be a university graduate to marry well. Advised to apply to New Hall since different entry requirement from other Oxbridge colleagues - details.

    Part 10 (tape 5 side B): Entry to Cambridge continued. Grandmother warned her not to become a bluestocking and told her she would never be expected to get a job: HF very upset about this. Came across very different people at Cambridge. University experience (read History). Garden parties at Buckingham Palace, etc. Attitude to GB Royal Family. Fell in love at Cambridge; was with him for five years after this - details. Didn't expect to work herself, thought would do things with her husband, whoever he might be. Hiring Pink Floyd for Valentine Ball. Drugs hardly around, HF never interested. Learned to cook. Academic career.

    Part 11 (tape 6 side A): Cambridge continued. Father posted to Philippines. HF felt very alone without parents in GB. Visit to Kenya where boyfriend doing VSO. Link with current Kenyan government. [Interview 27.05.1992] HF in Budapest in April for AGM of European Bank for Reconstruction and Development - details. Thoughts about future when leaving Cambridge - wasn't intending to work for long as was going to marry. Wanted temporary job for up to a year whilst waiting for fiance to return to GB. Careers advisory service at Cambridge made some suggestions, also had contacts via her father - details. Was put in touch with Hugh Corbet, who had set up private research institute on international trade. HC had been `Times' journalist, offered HF job. Atlantic Trade Study, later Trade Policy Research Centre, was concerned with trade policy between different countries. Kennedy round of GATT talks had just been completed (1967) when HF joined in 1968 and institute was trying to make recommendations re trade policies. Concern about progress of liberalisation - details. HF worked for institute for two years. Fiance came back and they lived in London. Details of HF's work with institute. Met many distinguished people who HF has met again later on: marvellous opportunity. American whom HF met at this time eventually introduced her to job in USA when looking for job there a few years later. Became an expert of effects of GB joining Common Market on developing countries; wrote a book about this - details. Was asked by Overseas Development Institute to write a book about trade policy between developed and developing countries, in 1969/70. Decided to do this and went to work with ODI in 1970, but HF's views in conflict with other views at ODI - details.

    Part 12 (tape 6 side B]: ODI differences of opinion continued. Left ODI after just over a year as result of conflict with book unpublished. Fiance wanted to go to business school in USA; decided to go to USA with him and get married. Had lived close to one another in London, HF sharing Mayfair flat with Cambridge friends - details. Sister up at Cambridge, close to one another at this time; sister now works for United Nations in New York. Hadn't seen parents for approx four years, since they were abroad. HF lacked self-confidence, was shy in meetings. Was working in a world she knew nothing about. Would have been better equipped if had studied economics at university, although history was useful to certain extent. Was mixing with older people in high-powered positions who were bemused by young Japanese woman in their midst. Confidence gradually grew, was often on wireless, had to speak to House of Commons select committee, became expert through working on book. Felt alone as a Japanese but by now her Japanese not good. In early 20s had tremendous amount of anxiety about having split culture. [SHORT BREAK IN RECORDING] Went to USA to be with fiance in 1970/1. HF couldn't get a job near him and worked in Washington at World Bank. Fell in love with another Englishman in London while waiting to go to USA so was reluctant to leave England. Didn't marry fiance and wanted to return to GB. Stayed in Washaington for about nine months. Was youngest professional at World Bank, aged 23; learned about working in huge bureaucratic organisation. HF had no problems in relationship with her secretaries - details. Made some lasting friends at World Bank - details. John Wood, founding member of Institute of Foreign Affairs (IEA) had read HF's manuscript written at ODI and abandoned; recommended Macmillans to publish it. Macmillan asked her to write it in different form and HF used this as opportunity to return to England. Decided to go back to Cambridge as graduate student in order to write; saved money from World Bank income.

    Part 13 (tape 7 side A): Parents were worried that HF hadn't settled, but postal strike made communication difficult between them. Father pleased that she got job at World Bank, worried when she returned to England, but proud when book published. Details about Cambridge second time round. USA publisher commissioned book on Japan's trade policy. Spent virtually a year in Cambridge, then returned to London, needed part-time job as well as book commission. Went to see John Drysdale at Robert Fleming who sent her to John Clay at Vickers da Costa. Vickers were only people who dealt in Japan at this stage, was offered well paid job. Knew nothing about stockbroking when joined Vickers; had to write fortnightly newsletter on Japanese economy. When book was published thought must find different job, didn't feel linked to stockbroking. Vickers based near Monument. First contact with City, details of first impressions, City people different from those used to working with. Didn't occur to her that she would work in world of finance. In Japan stockbrokers considered lowest grade of society, didn't tell parents what she was doing at first. After about five years father said she should give up stockbroking and return to more genteel life style, too late by then. After Cambridge had got Knightsbridge flat on own - details of writing second book. Through boyfriend was meeting people in world of architecture and art. Thought would leave City, hoped might not have to work. Colleagues at Vickers told her they were negotiating to go to James Capel and set up Japanese department, persuaded her to go with them. HF's role was to write economic newsletter. Team of five went from Vickers to Capels - details. Capels was bigger, more established firm than Vickers. Details about James Capel structure. Details of Japanese department at JC. Arrived at JC at beginning of bear market in 1974 - details. Terrible year, many stockbroking firms went bankrupt. Japanese market started to slide soon after HF joined JC. HF had married James Dunnett in 1973. Description of their wedding.

    Part 14 (tape 7 side B): Details of JD's family. Father was in Diplomatic Service. JD had also been at Cambridge but was year younger than HF and not part of her university life. JD worked for Erno Goldfinger, HF got to know him well - details. JD left EG's practice after about five years, went to work for Camden Council, now has own practice. HF and JD had bought mews flat and garages and converted them - details. HF bought house in Suffolk in 1981 as well, which still owns. Was by this time a partner in James Capel, her income much larger than husband's. Details of house in Suffolk. In 1983 separated from husband - details.

    Part 15 (tape 8 side A): Interview 19.06.1992. Developments in trading between Japan and GB. Between 1962-4, EDRs and CDRs. Foreign exchange restrictions in Japan meant no direct foreign investment. Foreign investment interest began in early 1960s during bear market in Japan - details. Vickers da Costa maintained interest in Japan despite bleak years. 1967 Japan joined OECD, joined international community in economic terms - details. In 1964 Japan's four large securities firms opened offices in London; landmark, beginning of Japan's participation in stockbroking terms - details. 1963 Japanese government stirling denominated bond for first time in 50 years. 1968 onwards it was realised that Japanese equities were undervalued in comparison with rest of world, unlike now - reasons why. Japanese suddenly realised they might be bought by US firms, fears, strengthened Keiretsu to resist - details. IOS shock. 1970 and '71 were depressed years. 1971 attempt to boost economy, expansionary policies introduced in Japan - details. 1972 bull market ended with oil shock. When HF first arrived in City was in middle of landmark history of Japan in financial world. May 1974 - May 1988, HF at James Capel. When first joined JC was embryonic Japanese department of two people - details. JC had arrangement to share commission with Japanese broker, Sanyo Securities. HF's team wanted to expand base of department, made it a condition that hadn't got to deal exclusively with Sanyo. Opened relationships with all other Japanese brokers. Not done in City in those days to poach clients from previous firm so never touched Vickers' clients. Generated new clients, some in London but relied on Continental client base. HF's role on team as market started to weaken. Tony Hemmant had gone with team from Vickers to Capels but became unwell and HF gradually took his place. Wrote report on Japanese banks, telephoned clients who had shares in them and suggested they sold, gained enormous orders for Capels, beginning of HF's success - details. Stockmarket peaked in July 1974 in Japan; JC had hardly any orders at this time, all other brokers in similar position. Market bottomed out in October. HF wrote reports on companies, etc. At end of 1974 went to Japan to visit companies - details. HF's Japanese not good on financial matters, used to take crib. Towards end 1970 enormous movement in technological development stocks in Japan - details. HF has no particular nationalistic loyalty, found work interesting and would have done so if dealing with other country. Had hardly kept in touch with, eg Japanese school friends, but was in touch with former best friend. Trips to Japan arduous and no time for catching up with old friends. Visited parents on 1974-77 trips, parents had returned to Japan in 1972. In mid-1970s Capels staff would take cheapest air route to Japan, fare expensive - details. Made profit in first year, never made a loss up until day HF left Capels. Difficult for parents to return to Japan, father found retirement difficult - details. Father got job with US investment bank. By approx 1976 HF fully on Capel team, had to do all the sellling. Team grew. HF and colleague ran department, enormously successful. Would have liked JC to open Japanese office, but this didn't happen. Other firms began to open offices in Tokyo etc.

    Part 16 (tape 8 side B): JC lost money in USA in 1974 bear market, partly due to cost of US office, so partnership opposed to costly offices abroad. Japanese team did well without Tokyo office. Breakthrough in 1977 when discovered colleague, Yasumasa Mitani, who taught HF what drives market, etc. Stock market to do with sturctural change in society and within the economy - details. YS had no formal relationship with JC; ran bar in Tokyo, Chez nos Amis - details. Met YS in 1977, year in which stock market moved very little, yen weak. YS and HF agreed with one another about what would happen next in the economy, minority view. Informal arrangement with YS, became life-long friends. YS eccentric, passionate about racing; HF took him to the Derby. 1978 year of rising yen and beginning of technology market. YS good at finding companies for HF - details, eg Hisaka. Agreed would only recommend stock to people who would hold it for reasonably long time to avoid volatility - details. Moment when JC partner bought Japanese stock for first time, doubled money in six months. Japanese team became much more part of firm at this time. Made money in 1978 and 1979, did much better than, eg Hoare Govett, reasons why. HF has intuitive good market sense; colleague, Dugald Barr better at analysis; DB's background. DB is HF's closest friend. DB had lived in Japan, taught HF about Japan - details. Hard for HF to have to explain that she couldn't write or read Japanese and sometimes didn't understand vocabulary, bluffed her way through. By 1977 HF's Japanese had improved, can now write and read it. Until approx 1980 team doing better and better, contributing well to JC's earnings; asked for bonus scheme. 1980 breakthrough year, became partners of JC - details. Achievement for HF to join partnership as a foreigner and a woman. One other woman partner of JC - details. Until 1973 Stock Exchange membership closed to women and stockbroking firms predominently male. Were about 35 partners at JC when HF's team joined, details of their shareholding. JC was Queen's broker, more upper class firm than Vickers. Atmosphere at JC. Working day at JC. Sir Peter Tapsell.

    Part 17 (tape 9 side A): Partners' meetings once a month. Details of partnership. 1980, huge Arab orders coming into market, no-one knew who was behind them, discovered it was Kuwait Investment Office - details. Hoare Govett, Rowe and Pitman and Cazenoves also dealing for Kuwait in Japanese stocks. HF and DB arranged to deal with KIO, led to several years in which had mammoth orders, race every day to get to telex machine in time to get through to KIO before other brokers. JC in end had special direct line to KIO. Details of work with KIO. Mrs Thatcher removed foreign restrictions so pension funds etc began to invest abroad, especially Japan, so client base widened. HF often up all night dealing, would be rung up at midnight at home and at close of Japanese market. Didn't mind being rung at home through the night because this enabled her to do job well. Was doing job for own satisfaction rather than for JC. Japanese dept like a firm within JC. Obligation to other partners not to run up huge losses, all had unlimiited liability. 1979-85 HF deeply into stockbroking, not thinking of alternatives. Probably had bad effect on her marriage but husband also working immensely hard. HF involved in husband's career and friends. Cultural differences between HF's and husband's world, meeting points becoming fewer. HF always earned more money than her contemporaries, doesn't think it was hard for husband. In first few years HF able to cater etc, but during 1980-83 period when working long hours, didn't feel like cooking; husband thought restaurants a waste of money. HF's earnings didn't go up enormously until became a partner. Reunion with parents, HF and second sister never frank with parents about emotions but still strong links. Didn't talk seriously to father until he became ill. Father understood HF's working life. Knew she wasn't happy in her marriage but would talk to younger sister rather than direct to HF. Advised her to stop being a stockbroker after five years. Father became ill in 1983 shortly after quarrel with HF, became closer. Father's death. Lady Williams had become HF's mother substitute in England, father wrote to ask her to take care of HF. Part of HF always stayed a little girl. Saying goodbye to father. Accepted father's death.

    Part 18 (tape 10 side a): HF had established position in firm so didn't have to rush back to work after father's death. JC kind and understanding. Worried about mother who now lived alone, visited her when in Japan. HF feels responsible for mother because is eldest child. Details of HF's sisters. Middle sister works for United Nations in New York, is married, has two children, lived abroad before. Youngest sister did history of art at Harvard, worked for Reuters, was stationed in Paris when father died, returned to New York to do PhD. HF had assumed she would have children but only with right person. Husband wanted children but HF didn't think they got on well enough. Father never expected that HF would work but when she became successful and a famous stockbroker he was reconciled to his daughters working. Japanese male stockbrokers kind and flattering to HF. Advantage being a woman. Hasn't come across much reaction from Japanese women. Best friend from Japanese school days never married, didn't have a career, is lady of leisure: HF can relate to this. HF would have had to be a lady of leisure if had returned to Japan; would never consider going back now. If life in England fell apart and had lost all her money might go back to Japan and would probably do nothing; thinks could adapt. When working under pressure at JC could switch off at weekend. Does gardening, gets bored quickly. Has no problem coping with stress. Never did anything to keep fit, hates exercise, is strong because is determined. Didn't take holidays often at Capels, is now more relaxed. Progress at Capels. 1980-84 most successful years due to volume of business, JC by far largest broker in Japanese securities in Tokyo. Contributed well to firm's profits. Some merchant banks tried to get team to join them but team committed to Capels. Pre Big Bang period, more suggestions, particularly from US firms that members of JC team should defect. Merchant bank tried to poach HF. Division of labour between merchant banks and brokers beginning to be broken down - details. JC team thought would enhance profits if could do underwriting and new issue business, began to be able to cut out merchant banks - details. HF began to break cartel in 1983, second deal noticed by merchant bank which complained to JC senior partner. JC senior partner supported HF but she agreed to give up at eleventh hour. Rows during this period, merchant banks said they wouldn't deal with JC unless HF gave up. Division of labour disappeared later with Big Bang anyway. Kuwait business less vigorous after 1985 due to lowering of oil prices. HF visited other Middle Eastern countries but not Kuwait. Travelled a lot during years at Capels - details. Secrecy absolute when dealing with Kuwait - differences in their attitudes. Companies with undervalued assets - details. Beginning of Big Bang, 1983, first sale of stake in stockbroking firm in England - Hoare Govett to Security Pacific - details. JC talking about whether ADRs in America would ruin London market. Traumatic time for JC. New competitive element introduced, became too dangerous to have unlimited liability, needed more capital. Imperative to sell firm, eventually sold to Hong Kong Bank after many rumours. Sale began in 1984 with agreement to sell rest of shares in 1985. Had to agree to stay with firm for certain period, `golden handcuffs'. Large personal profits for the partners. HF made fifteen times her investment in firm. Partners' lives changed. As time went on felt uncomfortable because of agreement to stay with firm for certain period. Effect of takeover was that senior partner changed. Hong Kong Bank had said would let JC continue to run itself but new senior partner expanded too quickly; enormous strains and tensions developed - details. Firm became divided and much unhappiness. People no longer worked such long hours because no longer had personal committment. By 1986/7 tensions building up in all areas of firm. HF approached by other firms at this time, as were many of her colleagues. Some people walked out, lost money by doing so. HF began to think about leaving when approached by firms.

    Part 19 (tape 10 side B): HF approached by Nikko and two others. Spent nine months negotiating with Hong Kong Bank in order to leave - details. Details of man who had become senior partner of JC. Five-fold increase in JC staff within five years - details. New trading system changed staff categories within JC. Loss of Stock Exchange floor in October 1986 in favour of screen trading. DB only remaining member of Japanese team from HF's days at JC, now Japanese fund manager. Details of what happened to HF's JC team, redundancies etc. [Interview 10.08.1992]. HF just returned from business trip for Nikko to Czechoslovakia, went to meet members of government and policy makers in order to know what kind of long-term business to do. Details of trip. Predictions for future of Czechoslovakia; Nikko's potential involvement. Nikko has never had involvement with Yugoslavia. Risks involved in dealing with Eastern bloc countries. Nikko not involved in former USSR at moment but has consultant there. Gut feeling that there would be problems in Yugoslavia prevented Nikko getting involved there. HF sceptical of speed with which Eastern block countries expect to organise a market economy, details. HF thinks in post war period West has worked hard to integrate different cultures and races, units of economic integration have been growing; in Central Europe reverse is happening - details. Quesion of whether GB should remain in ERM, wider issues than economy involved. Misjudgement of GB government re economy. Predictions re GB economy.

    Part 20 (tape 11 side A): Financial scandals in Japan. Many Japanese broking houses, including Nikko, had clients who were members of Japan's mafia. Japanese law which makes it impossible to discriminate against clients. Nikko's president resigned when revelation made - details. GB chairman explained scandal to staff in London, said firm had lost respectability in financial community. All major Japanese broking houses involved. Second problem stemmed from Japanese tax authorities - compensation made by houses to major clients when clients lost money in stock market; this not illegal, but some houses had broken guidelines - details. Japanese scandals were corporate matters rather than a few individuals, as in Salomon Bros scandal or Guinness affair; Japan is a society where individuals don't count. Japanese companies have difficulty managing foreign staff because of different attitude to career etc. Leading Japanese houses structurally similar to one another. Some differences in terms of types of people employed, eg Japanese stockbroker different from Japanese banker. Differences between big four Japanese companies, Nomura, Daiwa, Nikko and Yamaichi. When leaving James Capel, HF didn't have enough money to retire to country in luxury. HF had overdraft before received large payment. Had bought country house as her own home; felt insecure when marriage going wrong, wanted psychological security. Bought house in country just before Big Bang, had mortgate. Big Bang money paid in stages over five years, `golden handcuffs', so that new owners didn't find themselves without high level staff. HF bought flat in London with first two payments; had separated from husband, needed to be at work early in morning and couldn't commute from country. Enjoyed renovating flat in Ennismore Gardens, description. Has some help with cleaning flat. Uses laundry service. Does little food shopping in London, uses expensive delicatessen if has to. Cooks in country, gets meat from cattle dealer who has cattle on her fields, grows fruit and vegetables herself. Hasn't been in supermarket for more than ten yers. Sometimes eats alone in London but usually with friends; eats out quite a lot on business; men take her out. Doesn't crave solitude, could face living with someone again. Would have been nice if had had children, grass always seems greener on other side. Until 25 expectations were to have family and not work, had no ambition to be rich or famous or have intellectual achievement, didn't expect to be working in her forties. HF a pleasure seeking person.

    Part 21 (tape 11 side B): If was 25 again not sure would go into City again, would depend on alternatives. Would prefer to have worked in City than in industry or Civil Service if had to work - reasons why, comparative freedom in City. There still aren't that many women working in City. Female friend of HF at Capel became one of first female members of Stock Exchange, has just retired. Doesn't know any other women members of Stock Exchange well. Has a few women fund managers as clients. Doesn't meet competitors in corporate finance world often. More City women in younger generation, 20s and early 30s, than when HF that age. City is time-intensive, difficult for someone to combine with running family. City very intense, difficult for women half-committed to something else. Those women committed to City work as well as men. Women tend to be more direct and straightforward, don't make understatements or exaggerate for effect. Women not particularly different in approach than men, may be more emotional. Professional women in Civil Service etc tend to be frighteningly level-headed and fair, consciously logical - HF can't do this. Attitude of City men to women. Nikko offered HF job of helping to develop their Japanese equity business and to develop European and UK equities business more or less from scratch. Unprecedented (and not repeated) for Japanese firm to offer this level of job to a woman. Reasons why HF chosen. HF functions both as Japanese and British. 1992 first time Nikko has appointed British department head - stockbroker who works directly under HF, needed GB to do job. Relationship between Nikko Europe and Nikko Securities. Nikko Europe has 13 subsidiaries in Europe. Constant contact with Tokyo, which owns 100% of Nikko Europe. Degree of independence. Structure of Nikko Europe and key staff. HF on board of Nikko, is in charge of all equity related business including corporate finance, mergers and acquisitions, as well as stockbroking. 7 departments - details. Employs approx 350 people. Delegate staff sent from headquarters in Japan reduced because business increasingly needs local people - details. Japanese and UK cultures better integrated than 20 years ago. Main contrast between HF's past career and Nikko. Thought had arrived in Soviet Union when first joined Nikko - reasons why. HF didn't consider resigning, has learnt to work within Nikko's system without letting it infringe her liberty too much; thinks has lost opportunities to bring company income because of policy within Nikko. Lack of quick decisions and implementation within hierarchy. Not clear to HF what she was supposed to be doing in certain circumstances. Never had to reverse decisions she had made, sometimes had to insist on certain actions. Difficult to say if would have liked James Capel if had stayed longer after Big Bang. Main `enemy' at JC, Peter Quinnen, left JC in 1991 so things might have been different after this, but wouldn't have wanted to stay in stockbroking at same pitch, ie selling.

    Part 22 (tape 12 side A): Would have wanted managerial job if had stayed at JC, selling immensely physically tiring, had got stale. Wouldn't have wanted two more years of personal acrimony with PQ if had stayed at JC. HF's role since joining Nikko. Difficulties for middle ranking and senior UK staff, finding Nikko frustrating organisation; HF said she wouldn't be their `trade union' leader. First few months didn't do a great deal apart from listen to grievances, tried to prevent some people from leaving, tried to solve some internal problems at Nikko. Had to decide whether to do UK equity market making (1988), HF thought it was too early - details. HF persuaded chairman to employ McKinsie's to do report on Nikko. Firm decided not to do market making in UK. HF said should build up capability, if hadn't done so would have been in great difficulties now. 1989 urgent to set up mergers and acqusitions unit. HF researched strategy - details. HF has been building this up ever since. Nikko Securities objective to do more cross boarder international business, perhaps having nothing to do with Japan, in this field. 18 months ago, HF asked to do something about Eastern Europe because Nikko behind in this ara. Began work on this in 1991, is working on infrastructure plan in Poland at present. Eastern Europe slow growing business. HF's office calm but trading dept in Nikko busy and noisy. Working outside Square Mile was another reason why HF felt she was in Russia; people in surrounding streets looked different - details. Lonely time when first joined Nikko; will always be lonely within Nikko, no one in firm is on same wavelength whereas at Capels was with people who came from similar worlds. Network of friends in City and outside of which HF a part; social world. HF interested in art, gardening, literature, her reference points different from others in Nikko. Wouldn't necessarily want to go back to work in City itself. HF a director of Foreign and Colonial Investment Trust, visits City and meets with people on her wavelength through this. HF perfectly happy at Nikko. Was happay at Capel until 1986/7, only became disenchanted in last year. HF now older, doesn't need as much support as before. In last year or so has become more involved in things central to Nikko's operations - example. Led placing in Japan of Wellcome offer, HF at centre of this, working with Roger Gibbs - details. HF able to combine aspects of Japanese and UK markets in way no one else could. Nikko wants to be more involved in privatisation work throughout Europe, HF has been travelling because of this - details. Typical day for HF in London office. Is also on board of First Ireland Investment Company. Is on Council of Japan Society. Is on Development Committee of National Gallery. Is Member of Development Board of National Art Collections Fund. Is trustee of Mitsubishi Trust Oxford Foundation. 50% of day or more spent on Nikko's business matters, further details of typical day. Had meetings almost every other day during Wellcome offer. Sometimes takes work home at weekends, has sworn not to. When writing speech or chapter for a book, generally does so at home during weekend. Is fundamentally shy, this never departs but has learnt to control it and has gained self-confidence. Is reasonably good at public speaking. Why Nikko went to Victoria Street.

    Part 23 (tape 12 side B): Nikko moved to Victoria Street just before HF joined, not an extraordinary thing to do, others had moved out - examples. HF now likes office being out of City, ease of shopping, going to hairdresser, close to home etc. Often wonders what will do when 55 etc. Financial world full of young people, older people become less useful to their companies. HF has no desire to return to Japan, must fit in with company in GB, will stay as long as she can. Doesn't know if a woman could ever head a Japanese company. Ten years ago never thought she would join a Japanese company. Thought would be good if even lasted two years at Nikko, joined out of curiosity, has now lost a lot of that sense of surprise. Japanese language has improved but English has deteriorated because constantly trying to speak in simplest possible English if addressing both GB and Japanese people. General atmosphere of wit and company missing at Nikko. Way in which Nikko identity understood by staff. Nikko has small charitable budget, HF not involved. HF most proud of having written first book, hardest work she has ever done. Regrets little. Attitude to power, money, love, death. Hopes for future.

  • Notes:
    Recording date: 1991-16-12, 1992-13-01, 1992-13-02, 1992-27-05, 1992-19-06, 1992-10-08
    Collection title: NLSC: City Lives
    Duration: 10 hr. 55 min.
    Access restrictions: Transcript only accessible onsite at the British Library, otherwise no restrictions.

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